From: pat hayes (phayes@ai.uwf.edu)
Date: 05/31/01
>Pat, > >At 07:29 PM 5/30/2001 -0500, pat hayes wrote: >>>>>>>(2) A single semantics for one kind of language. We will have >>>>>>>multiple languages represented in RDF, e.g. >>>>>>>UML (see http://www-db.stanford.edu/~melnik/rdf/uml/ ) and it >>>>>>>would be nice if the rule language we >>>>>>>design is able to deal with multiple languages at the same time. >>>>>> >>>>>>Again, I have no idea what you mean. How can *a* (note >>>>>>singular) rule language deal with multiple languages? ("Deal >>>>>>with" in what sense? ) >>>>> >>>>>Be able to compute the deductive closure of a single set of RDF >>>>>statements with respect to a set of rules. >>>> >>>>Stefan, according to you there is no such thing as the deductive >>>>closure of a set of RDF statements. You have said earlier in this >>>>thread that RDF triples have no logical interpretation, and in >>>>this message you say that RDF is a datastructuring language. >>>>Concepts like 'deductive closure' only apply to languages with a >>>>proof theory. What are the inference rules of RDF? >>> >>>I meant the deductive closure of the Facts + Rules. Sorry for the >>>sloppiness. >>>RDF does not have inference rules, in the same way that a set of tuples has >>>no inference rules. Together with a rule language (e.g. SQL) I >>>might have inference >>>rules. >> >>Maybe we are still not following one another. As I understand your >>position, the rules themselves do not have a semantics (right?). So >>they are not *inference* rules, and it still seems to me not to >>make sense to speak of a deductive closure. In fact, if the RDF >>triples don't have a semantics (ie if RDF is a datastructuring >>language) then the triples are not even properly called 'facts'. A >>triple without any meaning assigned to it is just a datastructure, >>not a fact. It might be intended to represent a fact, or a picture, >>or a diagram, or a mathematical expression, or just about anything, >>or even nothing. Without a semantics, there is no way to tell. >The same is true for a database. >A tupel in a database may contain picture, or a diagram, or a >mathematical expression, or just about anything, or even nothing. >Still it makes sense to treat a tuple in a logical way. Im afraid I disagree. In fact, this remark sounds to me to simply be nonsensical. What do you mean by 'treating a tuple in a logical way' if the tuple has no known relationship to any kind of logical meaning? > Even it we regard RDF as "just" a datastructuring language >it makes sense to process the data in a declarative way using rules >- for an example see > >Correspondence and Translation for Heterogeneous Data, Serge >Abiteboul, Sophie Cluet, Tova Milo, ICDT,1997 >ftp://ftp.inria.fr/INRIA/Projects/verso/VersoReport-102.ps.gz I will read this and get back to you. >>No, of course, but that is a different issue. You didn't say that >>you were storing *data about* a statemachine; you said you were >>storing the statemachine. That is what Melnik is doing, seems to >>me: he is using the 'data' not as data at all, but as an encoding >>for something entirely different. Now, one can do that, of course. >>You CAN use predicate logic syntax to encode musical notation (use >>depth of function nesting for pitch, the constant at the bottom of >>the term for length of note, and clause ordering to indicate >>time-sequence) but if you do that, then you have no legitimate >>complaint if a Prolog interpreter fails to handle key shifts, say. >>The Prolog isnt meant to be used that way, and that way of using >>the notation does not conform to its declared semantics. >Prolog is a general purpose programming language (that's at least >what the prolog vendors say). Of course it is. So what? General-purpose programming languages still may have intended meanings and a clear semantics. >And I used prolog for large programming projects and can't complain. >And all prologs I used are able to handle key shifts - otherwise >prolog would not be usable for programing tasks. I meant musical key shifts, as for example when transposing from C to B flat. I think you would have trouble doing that in Prolog with the musical notation I sketched above. >>Similarly, if you take a relational assertion language and use it >>to encode finite-state transition diagrams, then you cannot >>complain if the rule processor fails to conform to the conventions >>of your idiosyncratic usage; and, more to the present point, the >>designer of the rule language is not obliged to consider such >>idiosyncratic uses. If people want to write arbitrary encodings >>with perfect freedom, then they should be writing code, not putting >>data into datbases; and they can't expect to get interoperability. >The point is exactly allowing arbitrary encodings on a higher level >of abstraction >and still have declarative processing power. I don't think that makes sense, but in any case that is not what I am trying to do, or think that DAML should be trying to do. >However, can be go back to the topic of designing a useful rule language? >It seems to me that the difference between: > 1) "RDF is a datastructuing language and tripels should not be >interpreted as facts" and > 2) "RDF tripels are facts" >is more than esoteric. It seems obvious that triples can be regarded >as atoms in a logical language, >at least if I not misunderstood your proposal (see >http://www.daml.org/listarchive/joint-committee/0436.html) >that was also your suggestion. They can be, indeed, and I would like to continue to so regard them. However, to my mind that it is incompatible with denying that they have a semantics, or trying to write rules that ignore the semantics. I still cannot understand quite how you manage to reconcile these positions. >Can we please focus more on designing a useful rule language? We got into this discussion because with our different notions of what a rule language is, we seem to have different notions of what 'useful' means. I emphatically do not see DAML rules as intended to provide arbitrary open-ended programming functionality. Pat --------------------------------------------------------------------- IHMC (850)434 8903 home 40 South Alcaniz St. (850)202 4416 office Pensacola, FL 32501 (850)202 4440 fax phayes@ai.uwf.edu http://www.coginst.uwf.edu/~phayes
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